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Post by Admin on Jan 16, 2008 22:12:29 GMT -4
White Wolf designed it's game very well. The game is heavy with roleplay, and unlike games like D&D, sometimes you could go an entire session without ever throwing dice.
The game is however designed to have conflict. Sometimes serious, and fatal conflict.
For example, if we have two vampires (let's say Bob, and John.) they will interact with each other. Let's say Bob has deeply insulted john during a social gathering. John will then try to insult Bob at a later time..possibly infront of a bigger crowd.
Blah Blah Blah...it escalates, and Bob starts sending Minions after John..who gets wind of it, and retaliates. Eventually it will likely grow until there is a fight between the two vampires to the death.
It makes for a great story.
The issue is, that likely, if this happens in the table top variety of the game, John is a player, and Bob is an NPC controlled by the storyteller. (Hopefully John won that fight).
Here online, there is no consistant storyteller, and there aren't really alot of NPCs. Most of the interaction is Player to Player.
the problem with that, is when there are player to player conflicts, it usually deflates because no one wants to lose a character. Which is fine..but the RP tends to look anemic.
Under our System here in CBN, players cannot be killed by other players (unless they want to be).
We feel this opens the door for more compelling, and edge-of-your-seat confrontation.
There will be more use of powers!...Bystanders will die!...Buildings might get destroyed! Who knows?!
People will have to cover up these disasters, and hopefully it will breed lots of extra RP opportunities.
to the Defeated:
If you are "killed" by another player, it will be up to you to roleplay how you survived. Wether you protected yourself with a power, or you limp away becuase your opponent neglected to deliver the killing blow, or whatever.
This becomes a good roleplay opportunity for you too. you can roleplay your humiliation..or perhaps your new found humility. You can plot your revenge..shaking your first toward the night sky.
In any case, a defeat should somehow affect your character..but how is up to you.
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A quick note about NPCs:
Everyone should make an NPC, not just prospective storytellers.
Remember..vampires are generally cowards. If your character wants to kill another character, he would most likely send a minion (the NPC) to do his dirty work. This presents a fun roleplay opportunity for both the NPC, and the player who needs killing...as the NPC CAN be killed, and should be fun for both parties.
Please everyone remember:
this is Just a game. Interaction between players should always be fun, and should never affect real life situations. If youre getting mad about the things happening in the game, it's time for a break
Never take anything personally that happens in this room.
We hope you enjoy this Unique rule, and that it enhances your RP.
This thread will remain unlocked, as We welcome your comments and questions
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Post by Prospective Player on Jul 17, 2009 22:50:45 GMT -4
The flip side of this is something that you had glossed over: The fact that the players ARE more willing to do stupid things. This means "Oh I can't die so I will just go ahead and do whatever I feel like."
No consequences. No retribution.
Let's say Vinny the Ventrue and Malcolm the Malkavian decide that they have....oh....shall we say 'irreconciable differences' in front of the Prince? Why should Vinny send ghouls? He can't die! He will just march on over and fight Malcolm himself! But then they get into it and Vinny wins. YAY! But Malcolm? He is still alive! Oh noes! He retaliates against Vinny. But Vinny can't die either!
So it just goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth until either Vinny or Malcolm get bored. Oh yes, by the way, they DO use their disciplines. They decide to also use things like stingers. Or even tanks. Why? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T BE KILLED! They will just escalate things with one another and get even more and more outrageous.
And if I am playing a vampire and I know that I am not able to be killed unless I said so? I would march right out on tv and announce that I am Lord Sucker, Emperor of the Earth! That all of you should bow down before me and my immortal self! And you know what? Nothing could stop my character from doing so as long as I said "Nope! I don't want my character to be killed"
Now, this is what could easily happen if left unchecked and unsupervised but it is a distinct and close probability. That is why characters should be declared dead and deceased. That is why two characters should bring forth any deaths to the council. They review it and go "Yep! He's a goner!" or they can go "You know what? We know your character TOTALLY dominated that fight, the player wants to keep their character so here is what we are going to say happened"
I know that a passerby, such as myself, has no right to question or argue anything that goes into a room I am not a member of. However, the invitation was extended.
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Post by Eric on Jul 18, 2009 1:28:52 GMT -4
This rule IS getting some significant attention for just such reasons. Admittedly, after a set period of time, the whole scenario that you mentioned, looks less like a World of Darkness game and more like a Saturday morning cartoon parody of the World of Darkness. It's safe to say that the poor vampire that decides to roll out his fangs on national TV or similar will most likely be found dead in an ashtray before the night is out and characters that lean heavily on the protection afforded by our current no kill policy will get a stern lecture on the evils of metagaming.
As for you being a guest, feel free to voice an opinion. I never turn away a good idea or someone who knows what they're talking about. We don't so much have a council per se, but there are several top notch RPers in the room any of whom has the ability to look at RP critically from a Storyteller's perspective. If we can, as a community, come up with a better solution that doesn't make everyone afraid for their characters, then I'm all for it. Everyone feel free to sound off on the issue and we'll discuss it in detail.
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Post by Prospective Player on Jul 18, 2009 8:51:09 GMT -4
Well, another aspect is that you are taking away WHY vampires are so cautious and WHY they like to manipulate.
The reason why they do not go out and start being public is: fear of death. This is why the Masquerade was invented. To a garou, losing their life is a matter of decades. To a vampire, it is a matter of centuries. Vampires have a lot of things under their belt and to lose that is what keeps them secretive. They have WAY more to lose.
I did offer the solution above which was: Let the players fear death of their characters. That is what keeps a rpg from becoming Final Fantasy where you can just hit a save point and WHOOMP! You're baaaaaaaaaack. If someone in authority goes "We will look it over" and then comes back to say either A) You're guy's toast or B)He is alive but just barely then it removes the safety net of the Defeated rule so that they are still afraid to lose their characters and thus not go overboard on things but it also still has the chance that they can keep their characters going along. In other words, a compromise. I contend that there should always be that fear. It keeps the vampires cowards.
Another aspect is the reverse: Garou. If they can't die, then they will rush headlong into things. They could just NPC a nexus crawler and beat it singlehandedly. Or a mage could NPC a squad of HITmarks and say they did not want to die. Wraiths could just leap into the Abyss. Fae could dance the night away on top of NASA. These are wild possibilities but they ARE possibilities. You say that the players are mature and will not meta-game? I don't care if you have known them all of your lives from the cradle, eventually, everyone gets a wild hair up their bum and will do something stupid. It is inevitable because people are human. But once someone sees ONE person do it, the Lemming Law of human behavior comes into effect and others will do it and then still others.
It only takes a singular crazy summinabeech to start a wild charge.
I thank you for not just deleting the post. That shows that the room is open to frank honest discussion.
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Post by Eric on Jul 22, 2009 10:11:12 GMT -4
You make a lot of good points, both about the boldness that characters show in defiance of their normal inclination and the irrational behavior that the no-kill policy can lead to in that respect. There's always been an understanding though that anyone doing such stupid things as revealing on TV or a mage turning the sky pink on a whim would end up dead. Like I said before, I'm considering an amendment to this rule.
It was originally intended to fix the problem where half the characters hid in their lairs and acted through minions (like vampires especially do) and open it up so that people were RPing their characters rather than their characters' goons.
While I agree that some form of killing in the room should be supported, I'm not sure if I like the tribunal idea. That method of judging fights is part of my distain for certain other RP systems that shall remain nameless. Still, I'm open to the possibility and some form of Admin review is almost certainly necessary for kills other than those agreed to by the player losing a character.
If this rule does get ammended, one of my concerns is a campaign of assassinations, carried out across the city for old grudges. Characters step on each other's toes and it gets taken seriously much of the time.
In any case, like I said, this is something that I've been mulling over for some time now and I appreciate any rational input on the matter.
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Post by Eric on Oct 25, 2009 23:43:55 GMT -4
Dead VS Defeated rule is repealed as of now. This server is now hardcore till further notice. Live in fear.
If combat or RP is likely to result in a character death, ALL parties are required to keep a log of the events pending a review of the event.
This rule is being pulled as a test to see how well it goes. Treating it as an open season to settle old scores will result in voided RP since there's no discernable reason for such old grudges to flair suddenly. Since we all know how much I hate to void RP, DON'T DO IT!!!
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Post by Eric on Jan 27, 2011 18:36:36 GMT -4
There's been some concern over ninja kills and one-shots regarding this rule and I'd like to address it so there's no confusion. If the character on the receiving end is an NPC, they're meant to be used and thrown away. The chips fall where they may. If the character is mortal and a PC, a one-shot kill is voided down to Incapacitated unless agreed to by both parties. That gives everyone a chance to react before deciding whether to finish the job or let that be the lesson. Depending on the nature of the injury, pending review, permanant injuries will be assigned to the character. After all, no matter how awesome your medical care is, that much injury NEVER leaves a person the same. This can take the form of loss of dots, addition of Flaws or both depending on the nature of the damage. If supernatural healing takes place, this isn't an issue. The penalties wouldn't apply since they are a function of the limitations of medical science and the human body to heal.
If the injured party is a supernatural character, they're most likely entitled to a soak where a mortal is not. Still, first strikes are limited to pushing someone down to Crippled. The victim can still function, albeit at a hefty disadvantage.
This should prevent someone from sniping off a hated character without the ability of anyone to react. I welcome discussion on this and any other topic and will make as many adjustments as needed to reach a balance that makes sense for the room. Thanks and keep your heads down.
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